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Shirt Collar and Stand in TM4
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StMike
Posted 2010-02-15 9:18 AM (#61243)
Subject: Shirt Collar and Stand in TM4



Extreme Veteran

Posts: 537
50025
Location: Evansville, Indiana
Hello All: I have made five shirts with TM V.4. The body and sleeves fit well, but there were some major problems with the collars that I have not been able to resolve. Both the collar and stand pattern pieces draft with considerable curve at the front neck. This leads to too high of a collar in front when buttoned and way too much limp fabric at the center front tops when worn open. Also, the collar stand is set to draft at 1" width with no chance to change that with settings. When I look at all the commercial patterns I have for shirts (and I have a lot of them), the collars and stands are not so curved in the front and some are pretty flat. David Coffin's book on Shirtmaking also includes some collar and stand patterns and these are mostly flat or only slightly curved at the fronts. I have tried to redraft the TM collar and stand with Patten Editor with some success, but PE is hard for me to use and control yet. Somehow I think there must be some things I can do in settings to fix the problem. For example, decrease the center back length and then increase the back neck depth. Or something else involving the front and back shoulder measurements. Moving the shoulder point with settings does not help. Just decreasing the neck settings creates more problems with the neck size, which seems to be very difficult to control anyway. My neck measures 15.5" but I usually wind up with an 18" or more collar opening. Can anyone help with this. Last year I asked that Wild Ginger change the collar stand width or at least give us a way to set that ourselves, but no changes have been forthcoming.
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Lisa - Tech Support
Posted 2010-02-15 10:13 AM (#61245 - in reply to #61243)
Subject: RE: Shirt Collar and Stand in TM4



Administrator

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The collar stand for the dress shirt collar is the same pattern as the band collar. You can draft the band collar and change the width down to 1/2" and use it with the dress shirt collar instead of the stand.
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StMike
Posted 2010-02-15 10:34 AM (#61246 - in reply to #61243)
Subject: RE: Shirt Collar and Stand in TM4



Extreme Veteran

Posts: 537
50025
Location: Evansville, Indiana
Thanks but that does not work I tried it before. I want the band to be 1.25" (which is a standard band width), and the choices for the band collar are 0.5, 1.0, 1.5 etc. No 1.25" and 2" it too much.
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Lisa - Tech Support
Posted 2010-04-28 2:42 PM (#62332 - in reply to #61246)
Subject: RE: Shirt Collar and Stand in TM4



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Location: Auburn, AL
Hi,

I am sorry to take so long to respond to this message. I wanted to do some research first and just today had the time. I looked at 4 widely used pattern making textbooks - 3 of which draft only men's patterns - and the Helen Joseph Armstrong book which drafts both men's and women's patterns. I also looked at David Coffin's book on shirt making. I listed my sources in case you want to take a closer look.

Following is what I found in regard to drafting men's shirt collars and the curve up at the center front. As you can see from the images, the curve varies drastically from 1/2" to 1 1/4". Each book drafts the collar in a very similar manner. The curve height at center front is selected solely to achieve the desired style and is irrespective of gender. I was unable to find any source in my library that drafted a man's shirt collar with a curve less than 1/2" at center front. So, it appears that my choice of 1/2" curve at center front is a valid choice for the man's shirt collar I am drafting in Tailor Made.

As for the collar width at center back, I did add the 1/4" increments that you requested in the April update.

I hope this helps. Certainly, if you have any other questions, do let me know.


Fundamentals of Men's Fashion Design: A Guide to Tailored Clothes by Masaaki Kawashima, Fairchild Publications, 1995 pp 182-185 - curve at collar cf varies from 1/2" to 1 1/4"

Fundamentals of Men's Fashion Design: A Guide to Casual Clothes by Edmund B. Roberts and Gary Onishenko, Fairchild Publications, 1985 p 73 - curve at collar cf varies from 5/8" to 1 1/4"

The Practical Guide to Patternmaking for Fashion Designers: Menswear by Lori A. Knowles, Fairchild Publications, 2006 p 63 - curve at collar cf is 5/8"

Patternmaking for Fashion Design by Helen Joseph Armstrong, Prentiss Hall, 2010 p 193 - curve at collar cf is 1/2"

Shirtmaking by David Page Coffin, Taunton Press, 1993, pp 64-65 - curve at collar cf varies from 1/2" to 5/8"




(Roberts.png)



(kawashima.png)



(knowles.png)



(Coffin.png)



(Armstrong.png)



Attachments
----------------
Attachments Roberts.png (419KB - 17 downloads)
Attachments kawashima.png (498KB - 7 downloads)
Attachments knowles.png (178KB - 10 downloads)
Attachments Coffin.png (261KB - 11 downloads)
Attachments Armstrong.png (103KB - 12 downloads)
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kirsten
Posted 2010-04-28 3:50 PM (#62335 - in reply to #61243)
Subject: RE: Shirt Collar and Stand in TM4



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Thank you for that interesting info Lisa

Shirt collar and stand is one of the collars I use the most in my womens shirts.
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StMike
Posted 2010-05-04 5:59 PM (#62425 - in reply to #62332)
Subject: RE: Shirt Collar and Stand in TM4



Extreme Veteran

Posts: 537
50025
Location: Evansville, Indiana
Thanks very much, Lisa for your thorough answer and documentation for the collar band curves. I have studied these and also I have David Coffin's book and studied that as well. I also have several commercial men's shirt patterns and a couple of women's shirt patterns for comparison of collars and bands. A couple of things for you to mull over. Note that the bands in David Coffin's diagrams become narrower at the center front ends (taper) and that makes the collar edge flatter in front. So, part of the geometry of the curve at the bottom of the band is offset by a tapering the end of the band especially at the top edge where the collar attaches. Thus, the bottom edge of the collar piece also becomes less curved. That is the main problem I was having with your design; the collar piece curves way too much at the front end, and the band does not taper. None of my commercial shirt patterns do that and their bands are much flatter in general. So the text books are saying one thing and the commercial patterns are doing another. I have started cutting my TM collar pieces without that fish hook curve at the end and tapering the bands (as shown clearly in Coffin's diagram) to achieve a more standard men's collar - at least I think it is vastly improved over what I was getting before. Also, I had to shorten the collar piece by about 1/2" (from the center) to avoid overlap or too small a space between collar ends and not enough room for a knot on a tie when shirt is buttoned (ie., there was too much ease in the collar piece to start with). I was not able to do any of these modifications in Pattern Editor because I could not control the curves well enough to get the effects I wanted. Have you made a man's shirt with the TM pattern? Has anyone in your shop done so? Has any one made a direct comparison of the TM pattern collar and band pieces with those from Vogue or Simplicity or Burda? I would be interested in hearing from them. If there is something I am doing wrong with TM, then I would like to correct that. Thank you again for your help with this.
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Lisa - Tech Support
Posted 2010-05-12 8:31 PM (#62556 - in reply to #62425)
Subject: RE: Shirt Collar and Stand in TM4



Administrator

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Location: Auburn, AL
Hi Mike,

I have indeed made men's shirts with Tailor Made as has my husband Paul. Neither of us have had any problem with the collar as it is drafted.

I am also completely unable to find any reference book that differentiates collar design by gender. Instructions in the David Coffin book that you reference are for both men's and women's styles. His patterns do not appear to be specific to men or women but rather usable by either. The Coffin collar above on the right does not taper at the center front. The one on the left does. This appears to be a matter of personal preference and style desired as opposed to a technique for fitting men versus women. In fact, his book shows many different collar band styles that can be used to create different looks.

I did took a look at some of the Vogue men's shirt patterns that I have. All of them create the collar band as I have done with no taper at the center front. The curve up from the neckline at center front does vary widely but they are all the same width from center back to center front.

If your collar is drafting too long, then the neckline is too large. You can reduce the size of the neckline by changing the neck circumference measurement.

Unfortunately, it is impossible for me to create every single style as someone may prefer it. That is the beauty of the Pattern Editor. There is no style that you cannot create in it. It gives you the complete flexibility to make what suits you best beyond anything I can do.
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StMike
Posted 2010-05-13 8:33 AM (#62561 - in reply to #61243)
Subject: RE: Shirt Collar and Stand in TM4



Extreme Veteran

Posts: 537
50025
Location: Evansville, Indiana
Again, thank you for the response and the valuable information. I especially find the diagrams sent previously very helpful. I agree that the bands in the commercial patterns do not taper to the front, but they are less curved - at least the ones I have are. But the collar edges are not so curved from the shoulder seam point to the front neck edge as your design. I have used a men's dress shirt from one of the better men's stores here in Evansville to make a shirt and band pattern according to the pin prick method described by David Coffin, and the collar shape is what I want for my shirts. The collar edge at the bottom is almost straight and lacks that curve included in the TM collar piece. I also add a slight curve on the top collar edge that improves the way the collar shapes to the area where the neck and the shoulder meet. Those curves are also found on commercial shirts. Also, I can redraw the TM band to taper it on the top edge toward the center. The band then looks more like the one you show in Knowles diagram in your response above. Making those changes gives me a great looking collar (more like a modern Italian shirt) that shapes nicely and doesn't stand out to the top and sides so widely as did the TM collar. I just had such bad luck with the TM collars and was never pleased with how they looked on the finished shirt. As far as Pattern Editor goes, I continue to work with that and have made some progress. Thank you again. I really appreciate your help. TM is a great program.

Edited by StMike 2010-05-13 8:48 AM
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Lisa - Tech Support
Posted 2010-05-13 1:15 PM (#62568 - in reply to #62561)
Subject: RE: Shirt Collar and Stand in TM4



Administrator

Posts: 2950
20005001001001001002525
Location: Auburn, AL
StMike - 2010-05-13 8:33 AM

Again, thank you for the response and the valuable information. I especially find the diagrams sent previously very helpful. I agree that the bands in the commercial patterns do not taper to the front, but they are less curved - at least the ones I have are. But the collar edges are not so curved from the shoulder seam point to the front neck edge as your design. I have used a men's dress shirt from one of the better men's stores here in Evansville to make a shirt and band pattern according to the pin prick method described by David Coffin, and the collar shape is what I want for my shirts. The collar edge at the bottom is almost straight and lacks that curve included in the TM collar piece. I also add a slight curve on the top collar edge that improves the way the collar shapes to the area where the neck and the shoulder meet. Those curves are also found on commercial shirts. Also, I can redraw the TM band to taper it on the top edge toward the center. The band then looks more like the one you show in Knowles diagram in your response above. Making those changes gives me a great looking collar (more like a modern Italian shirt) that shapes nicely and doesn't stand out to the top and sides so widely as did the TM collar. I just had such bad luck with the TM collars and was never pleased with how they looked on the finished shirt. As far as Pattern Editor goes, I continue to work with that and have made some progress. Thank you again. I really appreciate your help. TM is a great program.


You are quite welcome. Glad you do have a solution.
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