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straight of grain and pants
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Julie in OH
Posted 2010-01-09 1:34 PM (#60508)
Subject: straight of grain and pants


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Posts: 158
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Location: Cincinnati, OH
It seems I always manage to come up with questions, so I'm coming to the experts for advice on this one... I'm retracing the front pattern piece for my striped pants pattern. I thought while the much altered pattern and tracing paper were taped up to my "solar powered light box" (sliding glass door) and I have all of my tools handy I'd figure out exacly why my striped fabric didn't seem to line up with my straight of grain. What I've discovered is that the mid point of the front pattern at the hem and the mid point of the front pattern at the hip/crotch are "off" straight of grain by about a quarter of an inch toward the inside seam/cut edge.

Sooo... my question is this.... will correcting the cut edges so that the mid point at the hip and hem are parallel to the straight of grain cause torquing in the finished garment? If not, should I make the correction from the knee or from the hip/crotch?

I will fully admit to being waaay too picky here -- there is a part of me that is overly satisfied with the idea of lining up my cutlines/seamlines at the ironing board and pressing my pleats (not to mention making it easier to press/iron...). I don't know enough about pattern making to know the why's and wherefore's of all of this, but I certainly don't want to end up screwing something up in an effort to "fix" something.

Comments, suggestions and explanations are most welcome!!

Thanks!!

Julie
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Susan in Miami
Posted 2010-01-09 6:14 PM (#60514 - in reply to #60508)
Subject: RE: straight of grain and pants



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Location: Miami, Florida

Julie, I have learned from experts that the pant leg must be balanced (side seam meets inseam with a crease exactly in the middle of the leg) from hem to knee. Above the knee to the waist the crease will not be centered on the pattern piece. It seem to me that you are taking all the pleasure out of sewing for yourself with your search for perfection. Enjoy the process!

Susan

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barbara
Posted 2010-01-09 6:43 PM (#60515 - in reply to #60508)
Subject: RE: straight of grain and pants


100010010025
Julie in OH - 2010-01-09 12:34 PM



Sooo... my question is this.... will correcting the cut edges so that the mid point at the hip and hem are parallel to the straight of grain cause torquing in the finished garment? If not, should I make the correction from the knee or from the hip/crotch?

I will fully admit to being waaay too picky here -- there is a part of me that is overly satisfied with the idea of lining up my cutlines/seamlines at the ironing board and pressing my pleats (not to mention making it easier to press/iron...). I don't know enough about pattern making to know the why's and wherefore's of all of this, but I certainly don't want to end up screwing something up in an effort to "fix" something.

Comments, suggestions and explanations are most welcome!!

Thanks!!

Julie


I think it is a great question. You could crease yours pants before you sew them up, if you know where the crease is supposed to be.
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Julie in OH
Posted 2010-01-09 7:11 PM (#60517 - in reply to #60514)
Subject: RE: straight of grain and pants


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Posts: 158
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Location: Cincinnati, OH
Thanks Susan and Barbara. I usually do crease the pants before I sew them -- I always assumed that when I matched the cut edges that they should be parallel to the straight of grain. The last pair of striped pants was a real eye-opener when this did not happen.

So, if the crease is exactly in the middle of the leg from hem to knee, does this mean it should or could align with straight of grain? And, (I'm thinking outloud here), if the crease is in the middle from hem to knee, should it not also continue in the middle at the crotchline and would this not also be parallel to the straight of grain? What anatomy thing am I not comprehending here? I'm really not trying to be difficult, this is a "why is it?".

Another question about the hem to knee thing -- when I looked at DH's suit pants, it was from knee to hem that the stripes torqued off to the side with the middle crease. Just trying to figure out why the stripes/crease were perpendicular to the floor (and apparently on straight of grain) until the knee.

Please, teach me so I can understand. I really want to "get" this.

Thanks!

Julie
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barbara
Posted 2010-01-09 7:52 PM (#60518 - in reply to #60517)
Subject: RE: straight of grain and pants


100010010025
Julie, I am trying to figure it out too. My friend, the sewing snob, just irons her creases in before she sews up the pants. everything works out fine for her.
She is thin and perfect. she is really not that close of friend, that I can ask about the crease, she has her own ways and doesn't seem to adjust to other ideas.
She does not believe in pattern software and does not use it. I am a lone in my use of software, no user groups that I know of in the area, although I dont' think this is a software only related issue.

I have some jeans patterns that I have used and the jeans are pretty good, but they are not pmb. ( I hold my head in shame) but I have done pull on pants in pmb. I just don't have the strength to try jeans. I wear mostly jeans now, maybe I will figure this out by the time I need more jeans, or maybe I will be dead.
If I am dead I won't need jeans and if I am not dead, I should have time to figure it out.

I have gone to several clinics on pants fitting and hanging on the straight of grain seems to be key. My problem is what id I am not quite straight of grain?




your question is great!
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cfonfold
Posted 2010-01-09 11:33 PM (#60520 - in reply to #60508)
Subject: RE: straight of grain and pants



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Location: Norman,OK
Remember that most of us "mess around" and adjust our patterns to some degree. To figure out what exactly is happening you would need to look at the sloper closely. I'm not sure how much you really want to know!

The simplest thing to do is check to see if the grain/crease line is truely squared off of the crotch line. A really truely right angle. And then is the leg below the crotch line balanced at the knee and hem. Between the crotch and  knee it is all but impossible to divide the pattern evenly on either side of the crease. But the crease should follow a warp thread.

Pleats fall best if pressed along the straight of grain. That really does mean the warp thread that follows the crease line. This is a true statement. And probably often disregarded. Pleats running off grain often twist. The warp thread will have it's way!

 

 However caveats from here on--

 Squaring a vertical line up and down from the center of the drafting line established to represent the crotch depth plus ease, develops the crease or grain line. That vertical line is then moved .25 in toward the center back or front, of the pattern piece. (That’s a drafting rule.)

            More often then not that crease line will line up with the leading edge of the waist dart. Spooky,yes? If it is off a thread or two I would move the dart a bit. That is where the first pleat will be formed.

 

            The lower leg is then drafted to suit the style desired, measuring from the crease line on either side in order to keep the leg balanced.

 

            Because of the rules used to establish the crotch extensions (both front and back) ---with most figures that vertical line will at least be visibly centered.

 

 That means that your pattern will fold in half from the hem to the knee and then run straight to the waist in both the back and front. What happens to the pattern from that point up depends on your body and the style you are drafting.As an example ---because of the bias CB seam the crease line will appear to be inaccurate as it approaches the waist. But you will only press up to the crotch line.

Coopie 





Attachments
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Attachments Pants_crease_lines.las (5KB - 26 downloads)
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cindysews
Posted 2010-01-10 12:20 PM (#60522 - in reply to #60508)
Subject: RE: straight of grain and pants



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Okay, devil's advocate here. Since I HATE pleated fronts on my pants, for good reason....
But since we play with the side seams and the placement of our darts (or pleats) so much in the program. Then why can't you measure the distance (you did .25 of an inch) and then move the pleat in the program to match the grainline which is right from the knee/hemline and call it a day?
Cindy
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cfonfold
Posted 2010-01-10 1:57 PM (#60523 - in reply to #60522)
Subject: RE: straight of grain and pants



Expert

Posts: 1974
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Location: Norman,OK

Then why can't you measure the distance (you did .25 of an inch) and then move the pleat in the program to match the grainline which is right from the knee/hemline and call it a day?

Of course you can! Just make sure that the crease/grain line is square off the crotch depth. There are a few rules that really should be adhered to. It's easy to mess them up when we start fooling around with the patterns. That's why we stress accuracy when we teach hand drafting. Even very small errors in placement of patterns on fabric can distort the finished garment. And the .25" is a drafting rule--but if you forget it ---well you still get a pretty good pair of pants. But when you start designing with that pattern, it's best to use it.

 For pleats that fold out--(folded toward the out side of leg)--the pattern is split from the waist to the hem and then, with the crease/grain line kept on the straight of grain, the outer portion is rotated off grain to add the excess for the pleat. The crease will run right up the folded edge of the pleat. Good for stripes or plaids.

To reverse the pleat--facing it toward the center seam---the folded edge will by necessity be off grain. And the crease/grain will run up under the fold.  And in my opinion not be as suitable for stripes.

You can  of course rotate the center portion of the pattern off grain to add the excess and thereby keep the leading edge of the pleat on grain. But the CF will be off. A number of years ago there was a penchant for CF facing pleats. I hated them. Made everyone look fat,fat,fat!

There are of course other permutations for drafting pleats. But these are the basic vanilla versions. And probably good for everyone to know!

Coopie



Edited by cfonfold 2010-01-10 1:59 PM

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Julie in OH
Posted 2010-01-10 4:15 PM (#60525 - in reply to #60520)
Subject: RE: straight of grain and pants


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Posts: 158
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Location: Cincinnati, OH
Thank you, Coopie and Cindy!! The explanation you gave was fabulous. I checked my pant pattern (still taped to the sliding glass door) and yes, the crotch is perpendicular to the straight of grain. It seems intuitive that a crease should fall along the straight of grain as well. Will have to dig out my paper sloper and see what gives that it strays about 1/4 inch from knee to hem. PE intimidates me -- I know it shouldn't and I've used it successfully-- but I tend to make corrections "old school" -- something about the "hands on" factor that brings attention to the "why is its" and makes the "this is why" stick in my brain.

I'm glad to know that I won't be messing up my pattern by making the alteration. Will print off the explanation so I can have it handy.

Thanks again!!

Julie
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cfonfold
Posted 2010-01-10 8:29 PM (#60528 - in reply to #60525)
Subject: RE: straight of grain and pants



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Posts: 1974
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Location: Norman,OK

You're very welcome.

 And "Old School" is great. Nothing at all wrong with it. Next week I and my new staff member-- (who will probably take my place for at least a semester after I really truely retire in May) --will do exactly that. Flat patterning at the table from a set of slopers that he is drafting right now!Using PMB. And we will really "seat of the pants" it. I'm very !

It took me a long time to really be comfortable with PE. But at last it clicked. And the luxurey of being able to tear up a mistake and discard it with out having to start over again ,was I think the final bit to click into place. Not to mention the accuracy.

Take time to explore some of the basic "rules". It will help.

Coopie



Edited by cfonfold 2010-01-10 8:30 PM
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Karen - Tech Support
Posted 2010-01-11 7:42 AM (#60533 - in reply to #60508)
Subject: RE: straight of grain and pants



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Why not mark the grain line on the pants with a long hand baste and use it as a pressing guide.
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Julie in OH
Posted 2010-01-12 9:57 AM (#60552 - in reply to #60533)
Subject: RE: straight of grain and pants


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Posts: 158
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Location: Cincinnati, OH
Karen, that is a good idea -- and I did use the weave of the fabric when placing my creases -- however, putting the pants on a hanger was, well, interesting -- when I usually use the cut/stitching line to line up my pleats, the pants are smooth across the hanger -- this time, not so much... Am considering a pic to post of the pants that became a challenge.

I did check another pair of PMB pants and the straight of grain line was exactly at the mid point at the knee and hemline (very convenient that) and yes, the pants do line up along the cut edges/seamline/straight of grain to the top of the pant as well. This pair of pants was only different in that I decided to make the pant leg just a tad wider to reflect the current trend. I plugged in the desired circumference at the hem (as I had with previous pairs), hit print, taped it together and then retraced on examination table paper for easier storage in envelopes. I did make the adjustment for the stripes at the front of the pattern at the CF fly but that was about it -- nothing adjusted below the knee that's for sure. Soooo, that still leaves the question as to why even though everything was on straight of grain (to within an inch of its life), the stripe from knee to hem wanted to torque. Did examine another pair of DH's striped suit pants when he put them on yesterday morning -- and they were perfectly aligned with the stripe/straight of grain from hem to waist -- so some pair align and some pair don't.

This pair of pants has been quite the exercise in patternmaking and "why is it". May have to go up and see if my digital camera and computer will cooperate and post a pic or too and see what you all think....

Julie
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Susan in Miami
Posted 2010-01-12 10:24 AM (#60553 - in reply to #60552)
Subject: RE: straight of grain and pants



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Location: Miami, Florida
Could the fabric be off grain and not the pattern?
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Julie in OH
Posted 2010-01-12 10:32 AM (#60554 - in reply to #60508)
Subject: RE: straight of grain and pants


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Posts: 158
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Location: Cincinnati, OH
Susan, I think the fabric can always be "off grain", but since this fabric was definately on grain, that was one of the sources of the conundrum.

Have attached pics (hopt his works!!) -- sorry one is a bit blurry -- Let me know what you think.

Julie



(IMG_1573 (2).JPG)



(IMG_1568 (3).JPG)



Attachments
----------------
Attachments IMG_1573 (2).JPG (63KB - 3 downloads)
Attachments IMG_1568 (3).JPG (72KB - 2 downloads)
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Julie in OH
Posted 2010-01-12 10:35 AM (#60555 - in reply to #60508)
Subject: RE: straight of grain and pants


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Posts: 158
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Location: Cincinnati, OH
Hope these pics help. Did try to hide the scoliosis with the dart placement in the back -- only so much to do to "hide" things.

Julie
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